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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
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Posted - 2012.04.19 05:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
FW timer bug: A glitch which stops factional warfare complexes from closing when timer reaches 0. This occurs with almost 100% reliability when pvp occurs with members of hostile militia within timers capture range. This bug has existed since start of faction warfare and CCP has not fixed it despite repeated requests.
Usually this requires the other side to sit inside a complex for uncertain amount of time until complex decides to count itself captured. This can take anything between a minute or an hour.
Occupancy in factional warfare is related to aforementioned complexes. Often times the timer bug was used deliberately by one side to suicide a cheap alt to timer so they would have time to rally required numbers to chase away the opposing side.
There were also numerous other methods which were used to stop occupancy warfare by stopping complexes from despawning such as by keeping a cloaker inside a plex so it could not appear elsewhere that opposing side wanted to conquer.
Recently the occupancy warfare was changed so that "outpost" category plexes would respawn every 30 minutes after being taken. However, often times they would stop respawning so I investigated the matter and it seemed that Gallente militia was somehow able to remove the outposts from circulation when faced with too much opposition from Caldari militia.
Various methods were used such as off-grid ships, etc.
To keep up with evolving tactics of warfare, I figured out that you can remove the plex from circulation using the following method.
- Fly to timer with alt belonging to opposing militia. Timer is most likely bugged
- Run the timer to 0 and warp out.
- Outpost will despawn eventually and never re-appear until next downtime.
Gallente side seemed angry about me doing what they have been doing for months and i've been petitioned.
This was the message from GM:
Exploiting
From: GM xxxxx
To: Damar Rocarion
This is an official warning for using an exploit (FW Exploit). Exploiting bugs in game mechanics is a EULA Violation and any further violations of this nature may lead to a permanent ban being placed upon your account.
If this is official CCP stance, then it means that activity (pvp) inside an enviroment (fw complexes) specially designed for said activity is an exploit since pvp triggers the possibility of a bug with almost 100% reliability. And since people have vested interested to participate in occupancy warfare, entering a complex where enemy is already inside can be petitioned as game mechanics violation.
To me this falls into same category as GM told me when we petitioned cloakers who stopped plexes from despawning. The answer was "Working as intended. It is not illegal for players to cloak wherever they want in space". Therefore it cannot be illegal for militia members to enter factional warfare complexes either.
So either CCP declares that participating in factional warfare is bannable offense or they could actually try to fix a well known bug (timers) which has existed since beginning of factional warfare and which fixing has been asked numerous times.
D.R |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.19 07:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
Super Chair wrote:Am I correct in the details of the bug? I haven't seen it happen unless control of the timer changes hands at least twice.
Also, what is GM stance on the bug happening unintentionally? Because the bug does occur when militias just happen to be fighting over the plex, and the above conditions are met, the bug will occur. Will the GM department attempt to make the distinguishment between the bug simply occuring during "normal" gameplay and intentionally attempting to trigger the bug?
You are more or less correct.
GM did not make a stance about intentional or unintenional but the main thing is that activity where member of hostile militia enters the plex essentially becomes a bannable offense for your account.
This to me is of course a flawed logic when the actual cause of the trouble is a faulty product that CCP does not want to fix and threat of banning is either biased (GM favors the other side) or ignorant of the mechanics involved.
Otherwise if timer bug occurs, other side can form an overwhelming blob and if when defenders warp off, the attacking fleet simply petitions every member of the defending fleet and gets them banned for attempting this "exploit".
Is this what CCP wants? |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.19 13:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Val Erian wrote:I suggest he ignore CCP Exploit warning and keep it up. POst about it some more on forums... smack us in local thats its 'working as intended'. '
It's "working as intended" as you stopping plex despawns in Agoze by the virtue of your cloaker alt, off-grid ships in Aivonen and so forth.
The whole attitude of your side has always been "It is ok as long as we do it but if other side does it, it's wrong".
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Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.19 14:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Val Erian wrote:Of course Fw complex bugs can occur when both sides on timer. And of course its not petionable when it occure in course of normal gameplay...
And person determing course of a normal gameplay is? Logistics, boosters, etc. alts in opposing militia make no sense from realistic perspective yet these are deemed normal course of game play which nobody is deeming as exploit. Therefore wt going to a timer cannot be an exploit either in the light of this and GM is altogether wrong. |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.19 16:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Super Chair wrote:Also, what is GM stance on the bug happening unintentionally? Because the bug does occur when militias just happen to be fighting over the plex, and the above conditions are met, the bug will occur. Will the GM department attempt to make the distinguishment between the bug simply occuring during "normal" gameplay and intentionally attempting to trigger the bug?
Good that you reminded me. I must immediately petition following gallente pilots for coming into Pavanakka medium plex (I dont remember everyone who was there) this wednesday and as result of fighting over timer, the timer was bugged.
X Gallentius
Hrett
Erik18black (or something)
Because according to GM, they were guilty of a bannable offense. Petition time!
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Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.19 16:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:So if you want to bug plex you ask your fellow milita member to log his opposing militia alt to bug plex. Is that how gallente does it to avoid exploit ?
Pretty much. Using friends alt leaves the "reasonable doubt" defense there. Of course account sharing is widely practiced.
But as said, the stance of gallente militia and CCP is and has always been "It is acceptable for Gallente to do it but not for Caldari".
Hell, Val Erian even accused the "standings" thing we did in Metropolis as response to HIS (and Ankhs) continued use of it to be an exploit now, when we have CCP's official answer that "This is working as intended". So how does it go Val, banhammer for you? |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.19 17:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:If your powers of explanation are as weak as your powers of comprehension perhaps you just didnt explain yourself very well?
If you would like me to reword any petitions you have into something that doesnt make you sound like an ass i could probably help :)
Since I checked grammar on them, I highly doubt that is the case. I suspect the case was the CCP's bias towards Gallente militia. After all, CCP's staff has publicly badmouthed Caldari militia (during alliance tournament) among other things, which should be enough proof of this.
And with track record of GM's not knowing anything about FW mechanics and abovementioned bias, this is not at all surprising. It is also the reason why Caldari militia does not really trust CCP. Hell, upcoming changes to FW are designed by a guy who openly waves the flag for the gallente side so trust for CCP do anything right is more or less non-existent.
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Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
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Posted - 2012.04.19 17:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I can tell you guys one thing though, if you want this to be resolved, name calling and saying that CCP constantly favors one side or another isn't going to get you very far.
Truth must be silenced.... |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.19 18:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Heredom wrote:Name calling, conspiracy theorization, biasing accusations and what-so will lead to nowhere.
Fact is that there is a bug, and it has been heavily used by some players that can't see themselves in disavantage and counter it with group work and strategy. If you (any of you, from whatever faction) got caught or not is also not the issue. Just live with it.
Just whine that it's only Caldari doing it, come on, I know you want to and that's what you hint there. Because your side persistently maintains the bullshit that they have never done anything wrong. (Agoze, Pavanakka, Aivonen to name but a few), not to mention Chatgris and co. constantly using "lets have the timer run down by itself" bug. You might wish that nobody remembers events from 1-2 year away but I do. |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.19 19:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Heh heh, it seems now that gallentes are using their own alt and attempting to frame me for an exploiter:)
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Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.19 20:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Really? It would be a trivial thing for ccp to check ip addresses.
Nah, they are bugging timers when i'm in local and petitioning it by virtue of that. ie = I am in local and timer is bugged so it must be my fault. Too bad I saw their bugging alt leaving plex and local. Framing other person for exploiting. I think that is a fairly serious thing. |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.19 20:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Dopified wrote: As to what we did in agoze to put a person in a plex to delay it from closing is not the same. We used an account to keep a dead space open.
Nice to admit you did but there is still nothing that can be done about the fact that cloaker is inside a plex. Does not matter if you keep account for it either, those are easy to run with buddy programs, etc. And you did the same in Aivonen, etc. and even gave some proof to CCP but naturally, no action.
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Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.19 20:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Val would have to be stupid to think that ccp would not check ip's. You would have to be stupid to think that is what he is doing.
Goes to show you have no clue how this bug actually operates... |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.19 20:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
Dopified wrote:Damar I am trying to say that what you did is shutting down the way the game is supposed to play. Your argument that a person in a plex and is exploiting dead space is not the same. A dead space does not close if the person is in it that is the way it is supposed to be but you are shutting the mechanics off and logging off. There is a difference and we took that to CCP and they made the decision that it was.
And i'm saying you are full of s.it since what your side did ACHIEVES ABSOLUTELY THE SAME RESULTS! It makes no difference how you remove the plexes as long as you do.
And Crosi, his alt was in system only briefly since it is needed only briefly. It also helps how he bragged in local about "me bugging another plex" when I had not been in system or online for over an hour and saying he petitions me. |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.19 21:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Assuming all this is pretty obvious, the only reason i can think of that you would take a standings hit and kill caldari alts is if you knew full well that val was trying to despawn plexes that you had already bugged earlier in the day.
That would make you a bold faced liar right now damar.
Sure, I visited them briefly to trigger full npc waves inside them, much like Black Onyx alts do for gallente plexes. But not with caldari alt on timer and when plex was still fresh (this does not bug the plex since the ghost time goes down with regular timer). And perhaps I shot those caldari alts just because they were starting to **** me off since ship killing is minimal loss and I can use my expendable and soon biomassed alt to do the podding, as god and buddy program intended.
And perhaps you could explain then why was major plex out of circulation when we were attacking Pavanakka on tuesday/wednesday. Oh right, you removed quite by accident and full without meaning to. |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 03:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
GM Zerat wrote:This is a bug, and is scheduled to be fixed in a future patch. Abusing this intentionally is NOT allowed. Period.
So it only took CCP three YEARS to pay attention to the timerbug despite it being reported multiple times. Way to go. I quess your froggie overlords did get scared by the existence of the bug now when it mattered.
But it's good thing you have at least clarified it but to anyone with historical knowledge of FW, it also continues GM/CCP track record of taking action only when Gallente side deems it is working against them.
CCP is still the worst enemy of Caldari militia.
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Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 05:39:00 -
[17] - Quote
Miht Virtaq wrote:However, insulting CCP and the GM team by somehow implying we control them or they favor us in any way in a public forum while you have been warned already is just plain stupid.
Two of the most obvious examples of bias:
Situation: Gallente whines about not being able to retake systems after Caldari initially takes them.
Reason: No-one from the sizable Gallente EU crowd can be arsed to hit systems so US tz crowds work is easily undone.
CCP solution: CCP makes hostile sov spawn TON of plexes every downtime meaning that retaining occupancy becomes more or less impossible.
End result: Gallentes get their way since they can now "casually" take part in occupancy war instead of the month long grinds it used to take. Worst example of this was "Dominion Debacle" when multiple server reboots result in Old Man Star flipping in couple of hours despite for the past months being Caldari occupied by PERVS almost 23/7
Situation: Gallente whine about evil overpowered Caldari NPC and their ECM.
Reason: Attempting to take the plex in ship which is mainly designed to tank incoming damage and not to kill the NPC rats with drones, fof's, etc.
CCP solution: More or less remove ECM from caldari rats (I have random gurista belt rats jamming me more frequently than a full spawn inside a caldari plex).
End result: Caldari NPC's tactical aspect removed and possibility of smaller ship engaging larger one succesfully largely eliminated. Gallente NPC damps still retain their effectiveness on same level since start of FW and all rats can (and will) damp. Most drastic example is of three npc elite cruisers reducing Drakes lock range to 7km.
There are more but those two should prove without shadow of a doubt that CCP does indeed favor gallente. |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:3. Realise what a silly idea it was to post on the forum then hope that you can continue to exploit the bug but throw up as many smokescreens as possible in the hopes that GM's cant gather the client/user/ip/transaction data to incriminate you and your friends and alts while you carry on exploiting in spite of clear adjudication from CCP.
I think that just about covers it lol.
Actually this post was made AFTER GM threathened me with a ban when gallente players petitioned me simply because I happened to be inside a FW plex with a hostile wt.
To me the curious bit is how did the gallentes managed to get GM attention to this so fast when previous actions like cloak capture (Ankh), cloak despawn trick (Val Erian) or removing plex from circulation with similiar method (Moira./Onyx in Aivonen & Pavanakka) as this, which were petitioned by Caldari did not provoke any such action.
It must the unbiased GM thing again, eh?
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Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 16:49:00 -
[19] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Let's hope the GMs/Devs continue to place a high priority on fixing FW mechanics. I am looking forward to a relevant militia tab next week.
Since your last attempt at Oicx failed you will call for 80 minmatar to help?
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Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
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Posted - 2012.04.29 17:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
Could CCP comfirm if preventing captured plexes from despawning and re-entering circulation is an exploit or not? This is relatively easy to achieve and practiced by gallente a lot.
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Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
163
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Posted - 2012.05.02 14:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tiffy Mezzier wrote:Yeah, ignoring the politics, the larger issue is that this is a bug that disrupts normal gameplay.
We need to collectively focus on this fact rather than finger pointing. If we ensure that CCP makes the effort to fix the issue, then the discussion regarding its exploitation will be rendered irrelevant.
Yesterday Gallentes removed two plexes from circulation in Kedama, at least one pilot was petitioned for it. Knowing CCP, they will not take action since gallentes were involved.
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Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
172
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Posted - 2012.05.04 20:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tiffy Mezzier wrote:As a side note, for the sake of ensuring the issue gets assigned to the proper staff members, I would strongly advise against making any accusations of exploiting in your bug report, and instead include that information into a SEPARATE report.
This because any such accusations will immediately cause the report to be sent to the community team, who will then sit on the issue if they can get away with it until it becomes irrelevant. Not because CCP is chosing sides, but because sitting on an issue is much easier than trying to appease angry mobs.
In other words, give in to terrorists. F..k no. I should never have reported this one since CCP is content to let gallente side keep using this bug without repercussions as I bit expected.
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